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I wrote this on a small tribe facillitated by the folks at Peko Records and Hollywood Productions who have just produced the Evolution DVD (see my review on this tribe) and who were queried by some Goddess sized Belly Dancers to produce a dance video featuring only "big women". I'm against the idea because I don't believe the criteria for distinction should ever have to do with body size, race, class, gender orientation etc. but on style or type of dance only. Technical skill is technical skill and artistry is artistry regardless of size, colour, gender preference etc.
I think it is a fabulous topic for thoughtful consideration - but not knee jerk reactions. What do you think?
"Re: Would you consider doing a compilation dvd with just plus sized dancers on it?
Today, 3:52 AM
Please support consciousness and equality by NOT making a SEPARATE video for Goddess sized womyn. In the hall of the university this would be strongly opposed as the sham it is as "separate but equal". Its like having a separate bill of rights or constitution for each ethnic group instead of one law that applies to all humans equally. The real Constitution for the real Americans (read white folks of judeo-christian roots) and then a separate document for humans of latin, asian, arabic, african etc. SEe if you make it separate that means they aren't good enuf just to be INCLUDED. Inclusion is inclusion and exclusion with a separate video is still exclusion. If you want to inspire and illustrate to rubenesque bellydancers the world over that they are worth watching then include them in any video by style.
For example, If you do a video on Tribal Belly Dance include the many talented larger women on it, if you're doing a cabaret video do the same. If you were doing a video on Egyptian classical dancers would you not INCLUDE Fifi Abdou for example because she is rubenesque and create a SEPARATE video for Egyptian Goddess sized dancers? I think not. Separate is not equal. If you make a video of Belly Dance exclusively by women over a certain weight (and who is going to decide how to define Goddess size or rubenesque, that is a whole other can of worms?), the only people who will think to buy it are other women who consider themselve large. Thin dancers won't believe its for them. Do you see how it sets up large women who happen to be belly dancers as objects for the rest of the population to judge against the real bellydancers who are assumed to be thin?
I have many women who study with me who have rubenesque bodies. I teach them the same as everyone else and treat them the same and that is why they come to me. They are drilled and molded exactly the same as smaller framed women. I have not experienced that as a group they are differenly abled than anyone other woman who learns the dance. I have always had large women in my performance troup and the criteria is their ability, technique, personality, stage presence and creativity. In fact when I first started a professional performance company, it just so happened that one of the most talented dancers i had was large bodied. She was fabulous and I would never dream of having two companies, one for large women and one for the rest. If I was going to do that I might as well have one company of white women, one of african american women and one of women of hispanic ethnic origins. Its sillly right? So is having a separate video of Goddess sized womyn.
Be proactive and integrous and include large women with fabulous dance skills on every video make. Use dance styles to make distinctions and categories not body size, or ethnic origin, or sexual orientation, or rich or poor etc. That I will promote, but separatism I will not. I believe that the reason women of large body size have to keep insisting for a video that is about them is because they are systematically excluded from all productions simply because of their size. It simply is a huge fallacy and lie that in every style of belly dance there are not talented representatives who also happen to be beautifully rubenesque. Be the first production company to promote INCLUSION and make sure you do it on every video you ever make from here on out. That will take courage and vision and comittment to a level of integrity that is seldom seen in any field.
Remember that this dance is the sacred dance of all womyn everywhere and is for the empowerment strength and community of women for women. It is not a spectator sport that reinforces sexist ideas about what is beautiful and powerful - or is it?
With blessings and hope that someone will begin something radically politically and morally correct. P. "
I think it is a fabulous topic for thoughtful consideration - but not knee jerk reactions. What do you think?
"Re: Would you consider doing a compilation dvd with just plus sized dancers on it?
Today, 3:52 AM
Please support consciousness and equality by NOT making a SEPARATE video for Goddess sized womyn. In the hall of the university this would be strongly opposed as the sham it is as "separate but equal". Its like having a separate bill of rights or constitution for each ethnic group instead of one law that applies to all humans equally. The real Constitution for the real Americans (read white folks of judeo-christian roots) and then a separate document for humans of latin, asian, arabic, african etc. SEe if you make it separate that means they aren't good enuf just to be INCLUDED. Inclusion is inclusion and exclusion with a separate video is still exclusion. If you want to inspire and illustrate to rubenesque bellydancers the world over that they are worth watching then include them in any video by style.
For example, If you do a video on Tribal Belly Dance include the many talented larger women on it, if you're doing a cabaret video do the same. If you were doing a video on Egyptian classical dancers would you not INCLUDE Fifi Abdou for example because she is rubenesque and create a SEPARATE video for Egyptian Goddess sized dancers? I think not. Separate is not equal. If you make a video of Belly Dance exclusively by women over a certain weight (and who is going to decide how to define Goddess size or rubenesque, that is a whole other can of worms?), the only people who will think to buy it are other women who consider themselve large. Thin dancers won't believe its for them. Do you see how it sets up large women who happen to be belly dancers as objects for the rest of the population to judge against the real bellydancers who are assumed to be thin?
I have many women who study with me who have rubenesque bodies. I teach them the same as everyone else and treat them the same and that is why they come to me. They are drilled and molded exactly the same as smaller framed women. I have not experienced that as a group they are differenly abled than anyone other woman who learns the dance. I have always had large women in my performance troup and the criteria is their ability, technique, personality, stage presence and creativity. In fact when I first started a professional performance company, it just so happened that one of the most talented dancers i had was large bodied. She was fabulous and I would never dream of having two companies, one for large women and one for the rest. If I was going to do that I might as well have one company of white women, one of african american women and one of women of hispanic ethnic origins. Its sillly right? So is having a separate video of Goddess sized womyn.
Be proactive and integrous and include large women with fabulous dance skills on every video make. Use dance styles to make distinctions and categories not body size, or ethnic origin, or sexual orientation, or rich or poor etc. That I will promote, but separatism I will not. I believe that the reason women of large body size have to keep insisting for a video that is about them is because they are systematically excluded from all productions simply because of their size. It simply is a huge fallacy and lie that in every style of belly dance there are not talented representatives who also happen to be beautifully rubenesque. Be the first production company to promote INCLUSION and make sure you do it on every video you ever make from here on out. That will take courage and vision and comittment to a level of integrity that is seldom seen in any field.
Remember that this dance is the sacred dance of all womyn everywhere and is for the empowerment strength and community of women for women. It is not a spectator sport that reinforces sexist ideas about what is beautiful and powerful - or is it?
With blessings and hope that someone will begin something radically politically and morally correct. P. "
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sun, May 7, 2006 - 6:28 PMI agree with you Palika that there should not be a video of 'goddess sized' bellydancers only. There are excellent dancers of all shapes, sizes and genders and it would be nice to see them all featured on various video's. Let's not promote segregation, let's promote equality.
Dian -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Tue, May 9, 2006 - 6:49 PMWell said Palika.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Wed, May 17, 2006 - 1:11 PM"I believe that the reason women of large body size have to keep insisting for a video that is about them is because they are systematically excluded from all productions simply because of their size. It simply is a huge fallacy and lie that in every style of belly dance there are not talented representatives who also happen to be beautifully rubenesque. Be the first production company to promote INCLUSION and make sure you do it on every video you ever make from here on out. That will take courage and vision and comittment to a level of integrity that is seldom seen in any field. "
I quoted your statement and here lies the truth of the matter. That larger women, women of color and older women are systematically excluded. And until the time that they are included there will always be the cry for productions showing these women. If not that then there is nothing and I dont think we can wait for the good graces of the promoters to be brave enough or sensitive enough to include all women. We can talk about inclusion until the cows come home but it is just NOT happening. In an ideal world... there would be shows and dvds representative of all women. Until that time we have to push for those venues where in we will at least be seen or never be seen. -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Thu, May 18, 2006 - 10:57 AMI know, I'm sorry, i just have to still politically take the stance of pushing for what is right. Blessings, p. -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Fri, May 19, 2006 - 12:10 PMNot to be offensive to anyone, I'm sorry but I feel a need to "chime in" here....I just feel that it is wrong to exclude anyone because of her body type or race.
But that works both ways.
I have been in class and have seen things happen the other way around, the larger women are derrogatory to the "skinny" women. ..."you must not ever eat" was the comment. So it hurts either way and its wrong either way.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Wed, May 24, 2006 - 4:51 PMI agree. wrong to separate out body types, perpetuates stereotypes .
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sat, June 3, 2006 - 10:21 AMPalika said: "I have many women who study with me who have rubenesque bodies. I teach them the same as everyone else and treat them the same and that is why they come to me. They are drilled and molded exactly the same as smaller framed women. I have not experienced that as a group they are differenly abled than anyone other woman who learns the dance. I have always had large women in my performance troup and the criteria is their ability, technique, personality, stage presence and creativity. In fact when I first started a professional performance company, it just so happened that one of the most talented dancers i had was large bodied. She was fabulous and I would never dream of having two companies, one for large women and one for the rest. If I was going to do that I might as well have one company of white women, one of african american women and one of women of hispanic ethnic origins. Its sillly right? So is having a separate video of Goddess sized womyn. "
As a zaftig womyn, I have found that the moves *are* different for my body. There is more weight to shift and I find that my Rubenesque friends have the same difficulties I do. It is difficult to learn to pick your feet up off of the ground and shift weight from one side to the other. I'm sure slighter figures have the same difficulties, but that one physical block seems to have tripped me up for over 10 years of bellydance training. Putting more weight than is "optimal" for a body frame on a joint is tricky. Muscles and ligaments have to do different things in order to prepare the under-exercised muscles that are used to properly do the move. Feet and ankles take a bigger beating when a person weighs more. Extra care, time and patience are essential for healthy larger frames and bodies.
Yoga has definitely helped with my ability to go deep and understand my body and how it's set up and how it works. Another thing that has helped is having womyn of my stature in my class so I can see what the move looks like on larger hips, ribs, arms etc. I also appreciate age variation for the same reason. Skin color has never been an issue with me. I enjoy everyone. I observe the joy and verve in other nations besides my own and I feel inspired by their freedom to express it (I feel my nation is a bit hesitant "sharing and the feeling the love" ;).
Along with the apparent disregard for larger figure in DVD's slides over into the comparative dearth of lovely photos of larger womyn doing bellydance. Photographers love the slighter frame because it's easier to photograph. I *need* to see examples of large womyn so I can identify with them. I know that in a perfect world, I would have the self confidence to just get out there and do it, but all of us need our heras...
I agree with you in that there *should* be instructional videos, books and classes with a variety of body sizes, ethnicities, ages and gender identities. I applaude your shooting for the top.
Blessings to your House! :) -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sat, June 3, 2006 - 12:37 PMWhoops! I hope the phrase "slighter figure" didn't offend! Sorry about that... fuller/slighter... Slender! Is that it? :) -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Mon, June 5, 2006 - 7:30 AMThanks for the thoughtful post.
I agree that in terms of physics there is a difference for a larger body moving through space and time and I've had that conversation with larger women. And one time I lost a larger woman (in terms of continuing study with me) precisely because the workout was harder for her because of extra weight. Extra time and investment in conditioning and coming to know your body (as you say in you're studying yoga) is essential, and frankly in my opinion essential for every body type. But I do recognize and acknowledge that larger bodies may have unique needs.
I have often thought of having a class for the Goddess size woman, not because I want to treat them differently, but to accomodate their specific needs. This is a very different issue however, than the one of this original post of including large bodied women in commercial performance videos. I stick with my point that they SHOULD (though I know this rarely happens and its ridiculously frustrating to you talented dancers and artists out there) be included in showcase videos instead of having a separate video. That does not mean that if someone did a separate video I would not love, buy it and promote it. I would, but I would continue to protest that is should not have to be that way.
I would love to hear from the "big girl bellydancers" their reflections about a class geared just toward the Goddess sized woman. Could it be useful on an introductory level and then blend in with the rest? Whatcha yall think?
Blessings, p. -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Fri, June 9, 2006 - 6:50 AM
Fabulous response! I feel very supported by your post. :)
I agree with you wholeheartedly that there should be all-inclusion on a showcase video. I think time will give us what we want. :) Especially if we make it clear, as you have done, that all-inclusive material is our ultimate goal.
Regarding the Goddess-sized class, I would be in it in a heartbeat if I was in your area and you offered it. I believe supporting and respecting where a body's at is so empowering. Allowing the body to ease into moves that can be so difficult to start the correct way is so healthy, in my opinion. It allows the person inside the body to stop pushing so hard and to take a breath, step back and gently start the process of respecting limitations while safely pushing them so progress can be made. And if the person is already in that head/mind/heart/body space, then the class allows the space to practice and get strong(er).
Being able to then blend in with the rest, as you say, would be such a refreshing experience. To have those ah-ha's along with the rest of the class, bliss! To stop fighting the reality of physics and start accepting we are who we are right this moment, healthy and powerful.
So, a BIG Austin Texas YES to the Goddess-sized class. :)
Bright blessings,
Andrea.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Fri, June 9, 2006 - 11:26 AMGreetings & Salutations,
I was forwarded this thread by someone in my ATS e-mail group. I was pleased by the variety of educated, thoughtful, and heartfelt replies to what can be a very personal and very emotional question/situation. Discrimination in any form is hurtful and demeaning.
The personal power and pride I experience when I dance is a small part of what keeps me dancing. That, and the instant comradery I feel with other dancers. When I see a bellydancer, no matter their style, ability, ethnicity, or personality I feel like we are both part of the same special club. That may sound silly, but it lends an intimate feeling at Haflas and workshops and any avenue where dancers gather.
I do not feel I have anything to add to the question of providing “separate but equal” videos for Goddess size women. However, I would like to address the idea of a class just for “bigger” women.
First and foremost, please allow me to share with you the moment I feel in love with belly dancing. I took my first class over ten years ago. I went every week and did my best to not feel awkward and silly. I blushed a lot and giggled a lot. The teacher was great. Very personable and very real. I always felt welcome and I always felt like a dancer. One who needed work maybe, but a dancer just the same.
I had huge body image issues at that time. I didn’t appreciate my curves. I thought I would never be a successful dancer if I did not have a commercially/stereotypically approved figure. Then one day we were working on figure eights. It’s the first move I learned; and I still fall back on it if my mind blanks!
A lovely young Lady with a well proportioned, commercially/stereotypically attractive figure, was working on her figure eights beside me. I looked at her hips and then I looked at my hips in the mirror. And suddenly I realized that different is ok. That having curves can be good. And for the very first time I felt sexy, sensual, and wholly feminine.
That was the exact moment I fell in love with belly dancing.
Eight years and a pysiatic nerve problem later I found my way to ATS. I have been dancing and studying for over a year and half now. I have advised my teacher of my limitations: foot issues and hip issues.
So, I warm up and cool down religiously. And when I’ve pushed as far as I can push, I take a break. My teacher trusts me to not damage myself; and I trust my teacher to understand my limits.
So, to the crux of the matter: I do not think a separate class is necessary or adviseable.
I will concede that bigger bodies put more stress on their joints. So perhaps special attention needs to be paid to warming up and cooling down. Intro classes may include segments on special stretches for those areas of the body prone to injury, such as the knee/patella area, ankles, and feet.
But to segregate “bigger” women into a separate class seems akin to not including them in professional videos. It is “separate but equal.”
If a dancer cannot keep up, or is slowing down the class, then the dancer and the teacher need to talk out of class. They need to review the dancer's limitations and discuss alternatives. There can be, and are, very real physical issues. But those can be addressed in detail at workshops, seminars, or other special sessions.
In an “integrated” class we learn by watching others. We learn to appreciate the beauty in her smaller frame (look how the curve of her back draws the eye to her tassel belt), her medium frame (her hips are hypnotic), her Goddess frame (what a presence, it takes my breath away), and beyond.
If I had not been in a class with a myriad of body shapes and sizes so many years ago, I may never have had my revelation about my body…and I may never have realized that I can be sensual. I may never have gained the confidence, personal power, and pride in myself that I now have.
If we want to advocate that we are all dancers, just plain dancers, then we must do so not only in the professional arena of videos; but internally in our class rooms. We must acknowledge physical ailments and share information about preventing and overcoming them. We must avoid unintentionally creating an environment of segregation or elitism.
I am a dancer. You are a dancer. I just happen to have a bigger body. You may too. You may not. Quite frankly, my dear, I don’t care. Come dance with me. Come warm up with me and groan as we stretch tight muscles, come suffer through belly rolls and shimmies or whatever move(s) give you grief, then cool down with me and bemoan sore muscles.
Through it all share your humour, your experience, your insight, and your wisdom with me. Because you are a dancer. I am a dancer. We are belly dancers! -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sat, June 10, 2006 - 6:43 AMThere really aren't words to express how swept away by your story I am. [bows your way]
My story is very different from yours. I would have felt "safer" in a class for larger women so that I could experience the moves with women of my size and really get at the heart of the moves without being distracted by my "bigness". It is kind of like, for me, the prospect of having a man in the class. It would have to be a very special man, indeed, for me to feel safe and able to practice bellydance while he was doing the same. But instead of a women-only class, I needed a furthering of that safe space. I would never dream of suggesting that someone was *required* to take a class that has such specific issues addressed. That *would* be discriminating and demeaning. But offering it as a gift... that is how I see it.
Now, I would like to have that offering for larger women so that I can deepen my understanding of what I have discovered in my ATS classes. I have found, to my delight, two other dancers of my size who I can really groove with almost effortlessly. That has *never* happened to me. My 10 year ah-ha was when I saw someone with lots-o'-hips doing the 3/4 shimmy and I finally was able to wrap that around my own hips and really *get* it! My discoveries have always been hard won in the past because I couldn't see/feel the move on my neighbors or my instructor fit on my body. I didn't feel comfortable asking the instructor for lots of special attention. And I pushed myself harder because I didn't want to slow the class down and further segregate myself. If there were larger women in the class (and there were, but every time I asked or looked, I still couldn't get it because I was distracted by my own perfectionism and worrying about "not getting it" in front of all the others that did who were usually 10 years younger than me, much more "acceptable" physically, and had had years and years of dance). I didn't feel that personal power and pride or feel like I was part of a special club. Now I do and I believe it's because of my experience with larger women and I believe ATS has that ability to go deeper into creating the feeling of community.
I love that you turn a difficult personal time and perspective into the very thing that is beautiful and loving. I can relate to that in a deeply personal way. Unfortunately, I had to turn away from bellydance for a time (something like 6 years) to overcome my issues about my stomach and size and perfectionism. I feel my journey would have more lovely if I could have done that with bellydance. Telling this story has taken a lot of guts for me. I've re-read this thing I don't know how many times.
Most people who know me are probably going to be surprised that I have these issues. That's how deeply I've buried things. And if, by having a class dedicated to women like me, another woman doesn't have to drag herself over glass and fire like I have, then it's worth me outing myself.
I do recognize it is not any other person's job to heal me. But that attitude can turn in on itself and isolate. It's all a matter of balance. :)
Thank you for sharing your story. It's just gorgeous. :)
Peace,
Andrea. -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Tue, June 13, 2006 - 2:00 PMGreetings & Salutations Andrea,
Thank you for your feedback. Perspective is like beauty...often in the eye of the beholder. I appreciate anyone's attempt to share their own unique perspective with others through discussion.
Your post did allow me to consider a different side to this question...a different point of view as it were. And if a bottom line needs to be found, I suppose it should be: Do whatever is necessary to get women belly dancing!
After all, so much of the teacher/student relationship is based on the individual's personality and "fit." That relationship is based on trust. If a student trusts their teacher to guide them, teach them, and expose them to a new experience, then it should not matter what kind of class they are taking.
I applaud your courage in discussing this issue and how it applies to your own self-image. I am often attacked by a case of stage fright in new situations; and the pride I feel when I dance is hard won, and almost always bolstered by having friends around me who help create a safe space where ever I am.
Here's to safe environments, trusting teacher/student relationships, and continued exploration and affirmation of self-worth through belly dance. Huzzah! -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Tue, June 13, 2006 - 9:10 PMI would like to thank all the dancers here who have shared such personal stories. I think that the beauty of Belly Dance and ATS/Tribal in particular, is that women of all sizes and abilities are able to find acceptance and mutual sisterhood. I was so scared when I first started my classes because I am a bit older, had no belly dance experience and am a bit overweight. What I have found is a wonderful sisterhood (and brotherhood, but there are not nearly enough men dancers in Denver) that is so supportive and just breathtaking. I no longer worry about not being the right age, size or whatever, I just keep plugging along and enjoying how it makes me feel.
So, again I say, thank you all for sharing and together we can work towards a more accepting and loving world.
Dian
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Thu, June 15, 2006 - 10:22 AMHuzzah! HUZZAH!
I can't think of a thing that would further your message.
"Do whatever is necessary to get women belly dancing!"
I love it :).
Thank you for your support and encouragement. Together, we can take the world on a beautiful ride... from our lips and through our hips. It all good!
Andrea.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sun, June 4, 2006 - 8:24 PMYes there should be videos that include all but until they do I will be happy to see the ones that feature the larger woman because while we are waiting for it to happen.... there is nothing and I would take special over nothing any day. -
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Fri, June 9, 2006 - 6:59 AMWhat she said! ;`)
Andrea.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Fri, June 9, 2006 - 2:32 PMI personally don't believe that we should segregate, but it's okay to congregate. I don't think I would go to a "BBBD" (big beautiful belly dancer) only class or series of classes. But I might go to a workshop (emphasis on might) that offers tips and techniques for the larger dancer. Once. Okay, probably not. If I were told that I needed to go into a class of like-sized individuals to learn the basics and then I could blend in later with the "other" dancers, I'd be terribly hurt, more than likely really embarrassed, and I wouldn't take classes from that teacher. I'll probably keep on doing what I've been doing. I ask other dancers, short or tall or big or small, what the "thing" was that helped them grasp the move that I'm having difficulty with. I try all of their suggestions to see what works for me. Sometimes it helps to watch others who are closer to my size so that I can see in their movements how my hips move, or how their method of foot placement could help me with balance issues. Sometimes the person that helps me "get it" just happens to be more slender than I. I can never tell what it will be until it happens. My ATS teacher has been excellent at reminding us all to take care of our backs, necks, joints, etc. And I'm so thankful for the wonderful group of women that I dance with who never, ever, made me feel unwelcome or ungainly or unattractive because of my size or my age.
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Re: separating "big girl" bellydancers from the rest
Sat, June 10, 2006 - 3:30 PMLarge dancers like dancers of color are already segregated. When you see videos they are either not included or there are one or two token dancers. When there are so many talented dancers of both groups. If they cannot include these wonderful dancers in the usual videos then yes there should be something so we can have the opportunity of seeing these dancers and benefiting from their exposure.
In an ideal world everybody would be included but we do not live in an ideal world so until somebody does it right... like I said before I would rather see a special video than nothing at all which is pretty much what we have right now.
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